G+ Conversation

Me: One of the reasons I didn't play for a long time is because I didn't see representations of me in the games.
Strange Magic: Do you mean "women"? Because there have been women in RPG art since day one, including non-sexualized heroic women: http://bit.ly/uqTZmx (from 1983)

Me: No I said people who I felt were representative of me. She does not represent how I view strong women or myself.

Strange Magic: What do you feel represents "strong women" or women like yourself? The only thing I can think of that you might find disagreeable about that illustration would be "her hair is too long"... which would be a rather subjective opinion and nothing really to do with not being inclusive.

As an artist, and someone who's spent a bit of time thinking about how to make artwork that was "inclusive", when I see you say "no, not enough" to that illustration my gut reaction is "what's the point in trying?"

Me: What part of having opinion on art isn't subjective?

To me, she's drawn to please a heterosexual man much more than she is to be strong. There's an emphasis on femininity in the drawing that I don't find overly practical, especially the long piece of fabric between her legs. And having played a lot of sports and done a lot of other physical activity, I wouldn't have my hair loose like that.

The point in being inclusive is trying to figure out what the other people actually like and what resounds with them rather than making them fit into your own world view. This drawing feels much more like the woman is being made to fit into a world view where women are there for display first, their power second.

Strange Magic: s a horrible heterosexual male she looks "not ugly" but she's frowning and she's wearing head to toe armour. Would this not be suitable for +kirin robinson's "Women in Sensible Armor" blog?

There's an emphasis on femininity in the drawing that I don't find overly practical

I'm not sure what this means, other than I can tell it's a woman and not a silhouetted androgynous entity.

the long piece of fabric between her legs

She's dressed in the style of a pseudo fantasy Knight Templar:
http://www.intercessorchurch.com/hp_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11...

I wouldn't have my hair loose like that.

Rewatch Conan the Barbarian (1982) and you'll see Arnold doesn't keep his long hair tied back either.

The point in being inclusive is trying to figure out what the other people actually like and what resounds with them rather than making them fit into your own world view. This drawing feels much more like the woman is being made to fit into a world view where women are there for display first, their power second.

Which other people? I think you're wrong about this artwork - if the artist had wanted her to be eye candy they could certainly have done so. That this conservative illustration isn't good enough really says a lot about this issue. :-/

Me: Nobody said it was sexist. I said she doesn't represent how I picture strong women, in part because I feel that she is depicted as a woman before strong, rather than strong before a woman.

And I find it just as silly when long haired men have their hair loose.

Strange Magic: A drawing being silly, unrealistic, or not your preference is different from it being "not inclusive".

Me: [In reply to someone else's "Firstly, you aren't Tracy, I'm not asking your opinion. Secondly, I'm not asking about anything you're assuming I am. I am asking for clarification of a statement Tracy made about a piece of clothing. A piece of fucking clothing. I want fucking clarification on a fucking opinion about a piece of fucking clothing." ] I was in a fucking meeting, because I have a fucking job, not because I was ignoring anyone. For fuck's sake.

But given how antagonistic it got, I need to take a breather. I never used the word sexist. I didn't even say it was non-inclusive; just that I didn't feel included and that I felt the femininity of the character, as a whole, was more important to the artist than her being a strong character. If you have to go in an attack stance over that, then I don't know what to say to you. I'm tapping out for a while.

Me: I recognized the pose straight away as a baseball batting stance. However, I think the stance, and in particular where it deviates from a "proper" stance, were chosen not because it makes the character stronger, but because it allows Elmore to show the character's inner thighs. If she were intending to hit that arrow out of the ball park, her feet would be parallel to each other, with the outside of her left leg facing the "pitcher" and, in this case, the camera.

To me, the purpose of the tabard is to soften her and to play cat and mouse with the viewer. The pose is opened up to give greater access to her inner thighs but the "money shot" is hidden behind the soft, flowing tabard.

But let's take a step back for a moment. Why is she going up against someone with arrows, while in chainmail, without a shield? Why is her tabard so narrow compared to her body? Why is everything about her so new?

Compare that to the other image presented. The closed helm to me denotes grim resolve, a sort of, "I'm coming for you" as does his stance. The torn edges of his cloak and tabard show that he has history doing this and, given that he's still around, you might not want to mess with him. Now give me her in his outfit and pose (without a breast augmentation please) and I'll be in love.

Strange Magic: To me, the purpose of the tabard is to soften her and to play cat and mouse with the viewer. The pose is opened up to give greater access to her inner thighs but the "money shot" is hidden behind the soft, flowing tabard.

O.o

That really reminds me of this discussion about song lyrics:

"songs allow a person to put their own imagination, experiences and dreams into the lyrics. People can interpret it in many ways. Ms. Gore was looking for sadomasochism and bondage and she found it, someone looking for surgical references would have found it as well." -- Dee Snider vs Tipper Gore 1984

Me: Yeah, I'm really feeling the inclusivity here.

Strange Magic: Yeah, I'm really feeling the inclusivity here.

That reads like "Agree with me or you are non-inclusive", and I'm not sure if that's your intention...

Me: That reads like "Agree with me or you are non-inclusive", and I'm not sure if that's your intention...

There are ways to disagree that are respectful...there are ways that are not. Why not provide a critique that's centered on the drawing we're critiquing?

Strange Magic: I think if you had answered my question earlier in the thread: "What do you feel represents "strong women" or women like yourself?" it might have changed the course of the discussion.

Me: Perhaps a good start would be to stop treating half of the population like they should all have the same or even similar opinions about how they see themselves.