Conditions and You, How to Not Kill the Fun
One of the things I struggle with in building monsters is when to use conditions instead of just damage. There just isn't a ton of advice on which ones to use, how often, or anything like that. And given that one of the big design changes for MM3 is the use of more effects, and effects on a miss, understanding the severity of effects is even more important.
So here is the list as I see it, starting with the harshest penalties (the ones you'll want to use the least). When I created the list, I looked towards the fun of the players in addition to the effects the conditions had on the PCs. So the first group is little fun because basically the players get one roll per turn, their saving throw, and they are open to coup de grace.
After that are the conditions that aren't much better as they still remove the players actions but the PCs aren't as vulnerable. Dominated is particularly annoying to players because their carefully crafted character is turned against their fellow party members. Perhaps these are best saved for elites and solos and even then, only on their recharge powers. Additionally, they make good conditions after a 2nd or 3rd failed saving throw on a weaker condition.
From there we have the somewhat harsh, fair and annoyances. The first group is probably best left to recharge powers (ones that are used once or twice per encounter) or as conditions of a failed saving throw. The second group can be tricky, so you might want to limit them to recharge powers or only to the end of the next turn. The last group is pretty safe and can be used much more often.
Group 1: The Harshest
- Dying
- Unconscious
- Helpless
- Petrified
Group 2: Use with Care (removes all actions)
- Dominated
- Stunned
Group 3: Somewhat Harsh
- Dazed
- Blinded
- Restrained
- Weakened
- -5 to attack
Group 4: Fair
- Prone
- Ongoing Damage
- Immobilized / Grabbed
Group 5: Annoyances
- Slowed
- Deafened
- Forced Movement
- -2 to attack
- Marked
- Grant Combat Advantage
- -2 to defenses
So that's my list. What changes would you make?
Edit: I moved weakened to the somewhat harsh category.
Edit: At Rob's suggestion I added -5 to attack, -2 to attack and -2 to defenses, although I changed the groups for the latter two. I also added in granting combat advantage.
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I would put Dominate and Stunned as the harshest. I use those with great great care because if a PC is subject to those for more than one turn (i.e. if they don't make their save) they are basically sitting out of the game. If they are subject to that for 2 or 3 turns, that could mean that they are out of the game for 15 to 20 minutes (depending on how fast a group's combat usually lasts).
It takes a very special player to be able to still have fun when their PC is dominated or stunned.
Even if a player is unconscious or dying, they can usually be helped by another PC and will stay involved to help tactically. At the same time, the rest of the PCs are very willing to help a dying player, but feel helpless with a stunned or dominated companion, so they don't help that PC. I've seen really good players have very bad reactions to being stunned/dominated because they become isolated from the group with no-way-out (that's their perception anyway).
Originally, the only item in the first group was Dying, but I was convinced to put the others in there as well because they represented situations where a coup de grace was possible, thus a bit more dangerous for the PCs and a little less fun. For stunned and dominated where the end trigger is a save, other PCs could make a heal check to grant a saving throw and some classes have powers that grant saving throws as well. But I agree, too often players are more willing to help PCs who are in danger of dying and not ones who are "just" dominated or stunned or they just plain forget about the heal skill altogether.
Some other reasonably common effects that aren't listed:
Group 3:
Group 4:
Being knocked prone I think is on average in Group 4, but in many cases is just an Annoyance. For example, items or powers that make it a minor or free action to stand reduce it to an Annoyance. However being knocked prone while flying is a good way to take a character/monster out of the fight completely!
-- @azaroth42
That's a good breakdown. I might put prone a little higher as the victim grants combat advantage and there's no (written) way to help someone up.
Along those lines, it should be remembered that a Heal check can be used to assist any PC afflicted by a condition that ends on a save, either by granting an extra save or a bonus to a normal save. And if your DM is fond of (save ends) powers, there are lots of powers, items, and feats (and of course certain races and classes) that provide extra saves or bonuses to normal saves.
Yeah, I think players often forget about the ability to do a heal check to grant or help with a save. And prone seems to cause the most debate, and with good reason. Just how damaging it can be really depends on the group and encounter.
Dominated can be a much lower status depending on how enthusiastic your group is with their roleplaying. In most groups I've had it was easy to convince a charmed/dominated PC to just switch sides temporarily, with suggestions from me as to juicy targets/tactics. Heck, sometimes they'll willingly offer up encounter powers (with much glaring and shouting of "Same team!" from the rest of the party). Either way they're still involved in the fight. Either way it's also a good place for houseruled disarming or restraining grapple attacks.
Stun I'd personally rank as the highest. I'm not one to use coup de grace without a really good dramatic and storyline reason to do so, so the various helpless states don't bother me much. But in a game with 7 people who don't all have the easiest times deciding their actions, it's a real gamebreaker when one or two people are left without actions. Generally I try to look at the attack causing the stun and substitute a set of other conditions in place of the stun. Dazed + knocked prone is a favorite, since it gives the PC the option of making an attack from the ground at a penalty or spending their one action to stand up. Done right, you force the PC to consider their actions closely and get even more involved to make the best use of whatever they can do. Done wrong, though, and they'll just shrug and toss out an at-will, so still best used sparingly. The one exception I make is for mass stuns, like a dragon's frightful presence, which will hit most of the PCs and act more as an extra turn for the bad guys than a penalty for the PCs.
Combat advantage could be ranked higher, I think, to 4 or even 3 depending on the enemies involved. Against most enemies it's a minor defensive penalty, but with one or two lurkers on the field it can quickly turn devastating, either through raw damage output or the additional status effects some lurkers can add with CA.
I really dominate needs an in between category. It can be pretty harsh, especially if character starts killing other members of the party.
All in all I think this is a much needed post. I think more DMs need to look at the effects their monsters cause before they jump the game. Players really don't want to sit out for multiple rounds or feel ineffective.
T.
Immobilized is pretty variable. If all your attacks are melee reach immobilization can be crippling, but if you're a ranged caster with shimmering armor or can teleport its not even an annoyance.
This is an issue worth investigating. I've seen other discussions of conditions where the focus was primarily on the effect on combat duration, and playability. Conditions that deprive players of actions lengthen combat, and reduce player options, neither of which (IMO) is a good thing. Therefore, it seems that these conditions should be used sparingly by the DM. Possibly durations should be modified. Or, consider adding appropriate effects such as weakened's half-damage effect.
As a player I have spent entire combats dazed or dominated, and it is zero fun. It's important to remember also that dominated players may only be required to use at-will powers.
Also from a player's perspective, too many parties neglect powers that grant saving throws or remove conditions. It's good to have these options in your bag of tricks for moments when a condition is applied to a crucial team-member.
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